Today’s episode guest is John Colin Lumley, a British real tennis powerhouse born on August 7, 1992. Currently ranked number two in the world, John was practically raised on the court in a family of champions, with his father a two-time Australian Open winner and his mother a six-time Ladies Real Tennis World Champion. Now the assistant professional at the Racquet Club of Philadelphia, John faced off against Camden Riviere in a thrilling 2023 World Championship bid at the Westwood Country Club in Virginia. Join us as we explore his journey, his intense World Championship challenge, and his relentless pursuit of greatness in 2024. Speaking with John, we explore the mental tools and techniques essential for high-stakes performance. For instance, he shares how music keeps him in the right mindset during matches and how self-talk—both positive and instructional—helps maintain high energy on the court. He discusses his reliance on a "goldfish mentality" to quickly let go of mistakes, enabling him to stay focused and optimistic after setbacks. Further, we also had the possibility to unpack the concept of success, victory, and mastery which are often misunderstood as a single idea, rather than unique pursuits. Get insights into the nuanced psychological aspects that drive an athlete to grow beyond traditional markers of success, aiming for long-lasting greatness.
Mathias Alberton (00:01.071)
Hello everyone. This is Mathias Alberton. I am a training sports psychologist based in London. I am the creator of Martial Attitude and Martial Attitude Voice is the podcast where we talk about discipline across different sports to try to understand if we can gather some useful information for our daily lives or sport, if we are into sports. And of course, as a creator of Martial Attitude, I also run the Martial Attitude Training for visually impaired and blind people every Sunday here in London. So if you are interested, of course, please do keep in touch upon this. But today, let's focus on today episode. We are diving deep in the legacy and career of John Colin Lumley, a British real tennis powerhouse born in August 7, 1992. Currently is ranked the number two in the world. And John was practically raised on the court in a family of champions. In fact, his father is a two-time Australian Open winner and his mother is six-time Lady Real Tennis World Champion. the assistant professional at the Racquet Club of Philadelphia, off against Camden Riviere, which we met in the previous episode of this podcast, in a thrilling 2023 World Championships, beating at the Westwood Country Club in Virginia. So now I am really curious about exploring a bit John's journey, his intense World Championship Challenge, and I would add kind of relentless pursuit of greatness in 2024. Also, because in a couple of weeks' time, there will be the British Open here in UK, as we are recording on November the 5th, 2024. Hello, John, how do you do?
John Lumley (01:56.534)
Hello, Mathias. Thank you very much for having me on. very good. Thank you. Looking forward to today.
Mathias Alberton (02:01.261)
Yeah, for me it's a great fun and quite honoured to have really dwelled a bit in this, let's say, a community of players, super skilled and super talented people in the world of real tennis, which I have explained in previous episodes, it's a kind of niche, very particular kind of tennis as compared to long tennis. Now, for the American audience listening, we're talking about court tennis. For the British audience, let's say, is named real tennis. And the difference stands between the tennis that, let's say, the majority of the public can think of when thinking about tennis and the court tennis. So something that has been created centuries ago is by the Royals in France and then in the UK, famously, Henry the Hater was playing it. There are so many few, so very few courts around the globe. And it is really a niche sport, but is played relentlessly at very high levels. So for instance, you are class 1992. And my first question would be, we might talk about your family, but the legacy, let's say, but were you exposed to other sports before embarking into real tennis?
John Lumley (03:33.617)
Yes, I played a lot of sports growing up. was playing football, cricket, rugby, all the major sports at school. And then when I moved to high school, I won the under 16 national championships in real tennis in the under 16s. And that really opened my eyes to court tennis and where I could take it. So I don't remember being sort of any good really at court tennis sort of before that and then when I hit that age I really sort of dived in and got really into it. But yes and then sort of after that I was in my first 11 hockey team, I was playing on the squash team, tennis team and all that stuff.
Mathias Alberton (04:19.691)
And because from a sports psychology perspective, it's quite interesting to see how sometimes, not all the time, sometimes champions are made out of different experiences before. So let's say that in broad terms, to become very good at something, you need to put a lot of practice into that thing. And we can, I believe, agree upon this simple statement. However, if we take tennis, instance, famously Federer, for instance, played pretty much everything that was available before getting into tennis. If I think, if I don't mistake, John McEnroe was into different sports and unfortunately for the teammates in team sports, before he really understood and said, well, this is not for me. I baseball, can't cope with the team, so I better do something on my own with a net separating me from my opponent. So how did he play for you touching upon different sports and then realizing that, well, you know what, this was great, but this actually works better for me?
John Lumley (05:38.844)
Yeah, I always enjoyed the individual sports, so sort of tennis and golf and squash, but I also really enjoyed the team aspect of it. Definitely when I was younger and then I think as I sort of got older, more into like past middle school and into high school and I really sort of dived into the sort of solo sport of court tennis. I think definitely I really enjoy the camaraderie of the team stuff. So that's why I think I enjoy playing doubles court tennis so much. It really is fun having a sort teammate, a partner out there. But I also really enjoy the pressure of being just on myself and knowing that it's on me and up to me and I've got to perform. can't rely on my teammates or my teammates aren't going to let me down. I enjoy the solo aspect of it.
Mathias Alberton (06:30.259)
And now that you mentioned the double, for the British Open you are running in a single or in a double?
John Lumley (06:39.827)
So sadly for this British Open I can't make it. I'm going for a green card at the moment here in the States, which is allowing me to leave. So it's sort of, sadly I'm missing this one. So I missed the French Open, missed the Champions Trophy. It's having a little bit of a tough run here, hopefully, well, I'll be back playing in the... My next event will be the National Open, which is beginning of December. That's going to be in Boston, and that's just singles. And then I'll play the US Open, which will be back at Westwood in DC end of February.
Mathias Alberton (07:15.457)
And this opens to another set of questions which I didn't even think about, but it is something that I'm super interested in my practice as a training sports psychologist, is the idea of transitions. So transitions in sports are, let's say, namely a few. One is recognized to be the transition between amateur and professional sports. The other one could be the transition between injury and recovery. And maybe one of the most compelling for me as a psychologist is the transition between being an athlete and retiring. Now, but there are other transitions, which are not so spoken of, not even in the literature, the spoke psychology literature, and are the transitions between adolescence and young adulthood, and from one college to another, from one country to another, and therefore from a culture to another, within the parameters of keep on delivering, on performing at a higher level. For instance, if we think about any sports, you become very good at it. And then you are 16 years old, you win a bursary to go to United States from Cambodia because you're super good in, I don't know, grass hockey, for instance. And then, you know, everything around you changes. And you are expected to deliver as you were delivering Cambodia back then, but you are 16 years old, are thousands of miles apart from your family, and you have to cope with this. Now, you are fully British, as far as I understand, but now you find yourself in the United States, as you just mentioned. That's why the question came about. How did this transition, for instance, from the islands to the new world worked for you?
John Lumley (09:36.296)
Yeah, so my dad's Australian, so I'm technically half Australian, half British, but I grew up in England and I've never lived in Australia. But I came over here to Philly in 2013 and played in the US Open here and met Robbie, my now boss. And at the time I was 20 years old and he called me up a few months later, basically offered me the job in Philly and it was a two year contract, two year visa. And I was like, sure, why not? If I don't like it, I can come right back. And obviously I've now been here 11 years and I've loved it. But that transition was tricky. When I first moved here, they kindly gave me a room at the club, but I was literally living on the second floor. I'd go up to work on the fourth floor. I'd go down, I'd get dinner at Chipotle or Subway every night. I'd bring it back, I'd eat it in my room. And it was like, it wasn't a very healthy way of life. I was like, I need to find like a roommate or somewhere to live that isn't in just this one building. And I ended up moving in with Gary Swartner, who is still a very good friend and he was a member of the club. Still is a member of the club. And yeah, it sort of went from there really. I enjoyed the move. It was sort of like a fresh start with the ability to sort of train really well here. They got fantastic facilities here in Philly with a great gym and Robbie was there we got a few top amateurs here as well who are great to practice with and then I feel like my career sort of really stepped up from from there in terms of like the playing sense and My game sort of got better and better and yeah It was good.
Mathias Alberton (11:23.36)
And in some regard, do you think that the legacy of the family accounted for something in your familiarization with the change of scenery? Or did you feel any extra, let's say, pressure, if you want to put it in that way, just because you were son of two champions? Or not really?
John Lumley (11:47.286)
There's always like a little bit of pressure just because everyone knows you're, know, anyone that's been in the game for a little bit knows your last name, which is great. I always thought it was like a nice thing and I didn't really feel it as pressure. No, I've got a lot to live up to after Mom, especially those six world championship titles. But no, I think it's always been, I felt a nice thing to have and something that I'm following in my parents' footsteps with. And we've obviously got that in common as a family, which keeps us very close anyway, but it's great. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (12:29.241)
Do they follow you? Are they present when you compete?
John Lumley (12:34.866)
Yeah, so they were here for both of my eliminator matches last year and the world championship match in DC. So mum and dad flew over for all three and then my sister came for one of the eliminator matches. So yeah, it's mum and dad are pretty much, they're sort of half retired, I guess. They still do like little bits and bobs, but they have the ability to travel and their schedule is pretty free so they enjoy coming over here supporting me and it's obviously great to have them here when they're supporting.
Mathias Alberton (13:12.911)
And as a man of three worlds, UK, Australia, US. Now, because the sport is played as well in France, but predominantly in these three distinctive realities, yeah, they are Anglo-Saxon, all of them, but they are very different from one another.
John Lumley (13:21.142)
Mm-hmm.
Mathias Alberton (13:41.376)
For instance, when you go to Australia to play there, how do you feel the environment to be similar or different from what you are accustomed with?
John Lumley (13:52.214)
I love going to Australia. I one day I would love to live there. think it's absolutely beautiful part of the world and the weather's fantastic. But I think from a playing career and standpoint, it's very difficult to do it from there. So you're traveling to the US at least twice a year. You're traveling to England and France two, maybe three times a year. And it's just such a long slog of travel to go over there that many times from Australia. I think from at least while I'm playing that will always be sort of like a I wouldn't think about moving there. Everyone's so nice and friendly over there and we go to Melbourne and play in the Aussie Open there in January. It's like sun's shining, it's like hot, everyone's loving it and they obviously, I think I've been to Australia 12 or 13 times in life. we've been there a lot and a lot of people know us and so it's fun.
Mathias Alberton (14:52.439)
Are the courts very different down there?
John Lumley (14:55.19)
I think the courts at Melbourne are quite severe. So in Philadelphia, we've got quite a rough floor, so it's quite a bouncy court. They sort of beam us the clay court of court tennis. It's slower, it's bouncy, you've got a lot more time, and then you go to Melbourne and the floor is very fast and the back wall is very vicious and the court takes a lot of spin off the serve, whereas in Philly it's like the opposite. You've got to put a lot of spin on it to get any kind of reaction from the walls. So it's definitely, think, I find Melbourne quite a hard court to go to, especially from Philly, from like it goes to slow and bouncy to very fast and severe.
Mathias Alberton (15:34.763)
And for instance, even though now we are a few months for the Australian Open to start, how do you... I mean, this is something fascinating for me because the topicality of the courts are so specific. So each court is really something on its own. So it's not very replicable. So now that you have an experience about how the code is when you fly there, do you have a special preparation for this or no really?
John Lumley (16:20.576)
Yeah, I think I sort of have almost like a cheat sheet of notes of like how I think each court plays and then obviously a lot of the opens play on repeat courts. it's like, know Queens and I know Melbourne and I know a bunch of the courts here in the States that have the opens on it because we play that, you know, every year. Same with Paris, the French opens almost always in Paris. So you get to know those courts very well. then I sort of, you try and get sort of four to six hours of practice on the court, which doesn't sound like much, but you, it's quite a long time to get used to the court and sort of make little tweaks to your game. And yeah, I definitely go over to Melbourne knowing that like, all right, this, this ball is going to be on me a lot fast. So I want to have a little bit of shorter swing, maybe try and cut some more balls off. Don't leave them to the back wall so much and be a little bit more aggressive on the volley. Yeah. It's tricky though when you're going down there on that flight and you're like, it's going to be a completely different experience. And then you go out there, you land at 6 a.m. and you're practicing at 12 noon and you're like, wow, I can hardly hit the ball here. But by the time the tournament starts, you feel pretty good and ready to go on the court.
Mathias Alberton (17:36.543)
And the combination between the particularity of the court and the opponent that you are facing, how is it blended? Do you... I mean, given the number of players at your level in the sport, which is quite little, let's say. So I assume for experienced elite athletes like yourself, you know pretty much everyone and you know how they play and you might have confronted them all in years. So there is a discourse inside of you like preparing for that opponent in that court or you're preparing rather for the court because regardless the opponent, your game will be different because of the court rather than for the opponent.
John Lumley (18:41.103)
Yeah, I think that's a nice combo of each. Like I'm definitely taking into account where I'm playing my opponent. So if I'm playing them in Philly on my home court, I'm going to have a slightly different outlook and approach than if I'm playing my opponent on their home court. And they're going to feel confident there. They're going to read the ball well. And vice versa, I'm going to read the ball well in Philly and sort of be able to potentially dictate play a little bit more there. But it's an interesting point. definitely, let's say I'm going down to Australia and I'm playing Chris Chapman who's the pro down there and he's on his home court. He's going to be instantly tougher there because he's spending, you know, three, four, five hours a day on that court. So he's just so used to being there. He's on his home turf and I'm going to really have to be on my A game there to try and take him down. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (19:38.261)
And let's say, do you have and can you share in case any psychological strategies or techniques that you as a top player are using to maintain, for instance, focus, composure during these long rallies in real tennis?
John Lumley (19:59.74)
Yeah, I have like a sort of pre-match routine, which I think I've gotten down to, works well for me. I haven't always been known for being a fast starter, so maybe it could do with a little bit more tweaking, but that sort of gets me in the right frame of mind, getting my body ready. I sort of go into like my own zone a little bit, try and find a quiet space headphones on with music going. I'm doing a little bit of like visualization with how I want the points to go in my ideal situation. Obviously my opponent's wanting that not to happen, but of what I want to try and impose on my opponent. And then even if I can just find a space where it's enough that I can sort of run through my ideal rally and play some almost pretend points, but still moving while I'm visualizing it in my head. That's like a good, that's how I sort of get into my zone. And then once the match starts, it's, my mom was very mentally strong. She never used to look outside the court. She was very dialed in. I don't think I'm as dialed in as that. I sort of go in and out a little bit more because it can be kind of exhausting being like so dialed in every second. But the ability to sort of switch it on when I need it has, sort of happened over time and over practice. And it's almost like I go into that unconscious mode where I'm not really thinking, I'm just doing, it's like all those hours of practice really. And I think it's just trusting that I can do that. If I start overthinking it and getting tight, I end up playing nowhere near as good and as fluid.
Mathias Alberton (21:49.511)
I think it's incredibly interesting a couple of points that you made and make me think. So for the audience to understand, the game that we are talking about goes on for hours, three hours, three hours and a half. Actually, if I don't remember wrong, the match can be actually stopped and started again on another day. Isn't that right?
John Lumley (22:27.26)
Yeah, it's happened before, yes. Yeah. So I think at Queens for the British Open, they have a strict cutoff of 11 PM or maybe it's midnight and they can't, you can't play past that time because of noise for the residents around it. Cause you can hear the shoes squeaking and the balls being hit from outside of the court. So they have had to come back and play British Open matches the following day is interesting.
Mathias Alberton (22:57.988)
And this thing, so the time, the long time on the court and the idea of zoning in before the start of the match is interesting for me from a sports psychology perspective because if I think about, for instance, swimming, everyone who has watched the Olympics, for instance, not every athlete, but nowadays a vast number of them arrives and they are with the headset and allegedly, I assume, they are taking off the sound of the crowd, know, massive crowds there. So a lot of cheering, a lot of noise, the referees, the announcements and so forth. They take off this sound, but possibly they also have some music that they are listening to in order to, let's say, focus and do not disperse any of their mental energy. Now, that is, let's say, zoning in, as you managed to say. And apparently you're doing the same. However, when you are in front of it, 200 meters breaststroke, you know that is going to end in two minutes. So your zone is your game because your game is about to be spent in the zone that you are in when you started. Instead, I guess, and it is an educated guess, that whatever the zone you are when you start, it might be very different from what is happening one hour in the game.
John Lumley (24:56.018)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's interesting, can have, if I find the right song, I can almost have that song, like keeping me, not energized, but like in that mindset, I feel like throughout almost an entirety of a match, like I keep going back to it where I'm like, it might sort of pop up in my head or I'm singing the lyrics, whatever, and it might sound a bit crazy, but I feel like that sort of brings me back to that place where I want to be, try and find my best core tennis. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (25:31.937)
And this is the second thing I was thinking about. the zone, let's say the mood, the spirit, the mindset, and then you mentioned visualization. Now, visualization is maybe a set of movements or visualization upon a result or visualization upon a state of feeling throughout the effort, or is visualization of you being in a certain way, whatever that might be. Instead, what you just described right now, for instance, have in reference to the lyrics of the song, make me think about self-talk. If you... If we can share this. Do you use self-talk as a technique or not? What kind of self-talk?
John Lumley (26:43.037)
Yeah, for sure, yeah. I try and keep it upbeat and positive. It's not always maybe as positive as it should be, but it's high energy. I'm definitely like more of a, I don't like to be moping around the court and like low energy, like dropped head, shoulders back. I'm trying to be more upbeat, high energy, showing my opponent that I'm ready to go. I'm gonna chase everything down type mentality. Yeah, the self-talk is, I try and be better about it where it's more positive, but some negative stuff definitely creeps in there, especially when I'm down the receiving end and there's no one sitting right there in front of you.
Mathias Alberton (27:34.041)
Well, at the cost of being a bit, let's say, academic on this, but maybe the audience might benefit from this a bit. Self-talk is, let's say, an idea of talking to oneself either aloud or silently. And it can be positive, as you mentioned. It can be negative, as you mentioned. An example of positive is, you're great, you're going to do great. And an example of negative is, you were so stupid in this moment. But sometimes actually the negative self-talk is also positive in a way because you negatively talk about yourself, but it kicks you in the butt in way... It is a kind of a reminder, let's do not do that. It is negative because it's framed, phrased negatively, but is actually positive in the outcome. So that's one thing. And the other thing that is interesting about self-talk that there are different kind of self-talk and pretty much there are two of them, which you mentioned. So one is the instructional one. So how to perform let's say a motor task, which is very effective on fine motor skills. So when you have very little tweaks to achieve, example, I was thinking about swimming before, streamline the arm, reach out, these kind of things. So these are self-talk, which are instructing you to move in a certain way, or there are the motivational ones, which I believe is a bit more what you're talking about yourself. not to pump you up, but to give you, to remind you how good you can be. Something like that.
John Lumley (29:44.455)
Yeah, yeah, I think more of that for sure. I try and not get too technical out there and know, sometimes you can feel I didn't have my racket prep right or you know, whatever, I'm stepping in with the wrong foot, but that's like a quick, that's normally a quick fix and it's more the energy and staying in the moment and staying focused and not letting things negatively affect you and keeping upbeat and you know, we still get bad bounces in our game, make the balls by hand and you still have markers like referees calling the game, they might, you know, mess it up and it's just being able to just brush that off and move on to the next point and keep remaining positive and yeah, pushing forward.
Mathias Alberton (30:28.501)
And in this respect, thinking about your career and also about your opponents, did you make your mind about what kind of... also because you're a trainer, aren't you? You train the sport.
John Lumley (30:42.495)
Yes, yeah, yes. I coach at the club here in Philly as well.
Mathias Alberton (30:46.241)
Yeah, so you do have an experience with a large number of players across the border, let's say. So what kind of mental traits do you believe are essential for success in real tennis?
John Lumley (31:01.821)
I think for real tennis, the ability to, it's almost like having like that. We like to call it goldfish mentality. So when I'm working with Robbie, it's like just letting that, letting it go. Whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen and you can't do anything about what happened in the past. it's trying to remain positive, stick to the game plan, keep moving forward and staying in a positive mind frame there. Because so often you watch someone, know, a call go the wrong way or something and they, that opponent's head down for, you know, a game, two games can be longer and you're like, that's, they've just sort of blown their chance in the set really by one bad call. And sometimes it's almost the other way. It's like, it's, it fires me up even more if I get like a call go the wrong way or something super lucky happens for my opponent and, and then switching that into a positive where I'm like, all right, I'm even more fired up now because of that situation. And yeah, trying to that flow going.
Mathias Alberton (32:04.693)
And yeah, you mentioned Robbie a couple of times. So there is, let's say, there is someone named Robbie and you are, let's say, working with the guy and you are battling against the guy. So how does that work?
John Lumley (32:27.756)
Yeah, so he's the athletic director of the club, so he's my boss. I sit next to him, I've basically spent more time with him in the last 11 years than anybody else. He's great and he also is sort one of my, well, he's my main hitting partner in Philly. So we hit a lot, he'll feed me certain balls, we'll do certain drills, we talk about ideas, game plans. We go back and watch film and footage and see what went wrong and what we could do better. He's my unofficial coach really. I still go and speak to other people and use them as training, but Robbie's my main practice partner.
Mathias Alberton (33:21.271)
I recently on my channel, Instagram, LinkedIn, I have started posting a bit of ideas of my own. Let's say I write them in a very short, streamlined way as post. And I do have an intense conundrum, let's say, with the word success. And lately I have been trying to write a lot about success and I will post possibly more in the upcoming weeks and months about success. For instance, I have stated that success is overrated and greatness is underrated. Would you agree on something like this?
John Lumley (34:17.38)
I like that, yeah. I like that saying.
Mathias Alberton (34:20.023)
In which way? Why? What is success? What is greatness?
John Lumley (34:26.308)
I think greatness is being, I see greatness as a more sought after thing than success. I think being great is you're really at the top and you've done a fantastic job and you're there. Success can be, success is great but it's still, I don't think as great as greatness. I'm not sure if that makes sense but.
Mathias Alberton (34:55.363)
It does.
John Lumley (34:56.886)
Yeah, that's when you say that I think I agree with you. And that's how I would I would feel about that that statement. What what what do you what's your what's your sort of thinking behind that?
Mathias Alberton (35:09.207)
Well, problem with me is that, you know, we live in a world of communication and communication is driven a lot by, let's say, let's put it bluntly, by social media, if you wish. And there is so, it sounds to me that success is very much of a buzzword right now. And is everything is either a success or is not a success? And if it's not a success, it's a failure. And I think that is so unfair and is also wrong in the proposition. Because the proposition is if you don't get success, you didn't get anything, which is so wrong. Because I mean,
John Lumley (35:55.842)
Right. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (36:01.197)
Back in the days, I wouldn't have thought that any of the people I was hanging around with or parents or parents of my friends would have been either depicted, branded, labeled as unsuccessful just because they didn't have success. When success is understood to be something big that everyone is recognizing has happened to you. And you are embodying that idea of success, whatever that might be. And this now has spread across the spectrum all over, not only in finance, not only in entrepreneurship, but also in sports. And I think that a lot of people, a lot of athletes might struggle with the idea of not being successful or not being successful enough or not being successful for long enough. And I think that creates more problem than anything else. So that's why I pose the question to you, what do you think about this?
John Lumley (37:13.806)
Yeah, think it's a good, it's well put because if I go and play, if you take, so I played in the US Pro in Newport in June this summer and I had a great event but I ended up losing to Camden in the final and the scoreline was pretty aggressive and I didn't play very well and he was on fire that day and everything and I sort of looked at, I came away from that feeling, you know, pretty defeated and like you were just saying, there's an unsuccessful event and I failed and all this stuff. you know, when I, that's sort of my initial reaction of it. So when I leave, I'm very down, very negative. I can't really watch the matches because if I do, I just look at everything so negatively. But now once you sort of take a step back, you're like, okay, up to the final, I had a very successful event and everything went well. And then also, even when we take out the successful and unsuccessful, I still learn from that experience and can hopefully push forward and get more into a place where that hopefully won't happen next time or I can go one better. But it's interesting, I like what you're saying there with the, sort of you brand it in one or two ways, but it's really not, it's not that way, there's so much more to it.
Mathias Alberton (38:30.445)
Yeah, the idea for me is also, again, something that I try to put down in words is that success, victory and mastery are all different things. They, and they normally actually do not overlap very often. So, but in the, for the people approaching anything, they seems to to be just one thing, success. And it's not. I rather suggest to open up to new words in the vocabulary kind of thing. Talking of which, success, how do you see... Let's say the psychological demand of real tennis evolving as the sport gains more attention and participation from a broader audience? Another way to put it is that in many sports the audience puts a lot of pressure on the players. Because maybe there are bigger stadiums, so that's one option, or because there is the media press attention and real tennis is still kind of protected. In that regard, which is a good thing, but it's also not a good thing. Meaning it would be better if the sport was more recognized, more have a bigger audience. On the other hand, you don't give the flank to this kind of unwanted attention and pressure in a way.
John Lumley (42:18.034)
Yeah, think it's such a, I think you know, just that with such a small sport, it's you don't have all this, these massive crowds and all this attention on social media. And, know, I'm not, no one's stopping me on the street saying, you're John Lumley. You know, so that sort of doesn't seem to be a pressure now. I mean, if, the, if the grain suddenly grew, you know, a thousand times suddenly, and there was, you know, bigger purses and you were doing appearances and you had fans and you have the ability to have stadiums with 10,000 people watching potentially, but I don't think that's going to be happening anytime soon, sadly. I don't think that will change too much.
Mathias Alberton (42:59.737)
There is the one thing that is slightly different, at least in one location in US. The court of real tennis is indoors. Let's clarify this for the audience listening now. And one of the three walls is a plain, long, steady wall. But there is one court in US in which this long steady wall is actually in crystal, kind of transparent. Isn't that right?
John Lumley (43:34.222)
It was. So that one was the old court in Washington. And that one sadly got knocked down, I think two or three years ago and they moved it to Westwood Country Club. So the one with the glass wall on the main wall is no longer there, sadly. It was interesting. It was great to, as you were saying, it's great to watch from. used to have like these like comfy couches there and you could fit a lot more people in watching. But it was basically where the glass had to be put together there were joins and then the ball could hit those joins and come off at a sort of random angle and it wasn't they sort of didn't deem it a court that was fit to have like a US Open on it. So we would go down and play national opens on it but that's you know it doesn't have the same weight as an open. I really enjoyed I used to really enjoy playing there. That court was actually a bit shorter as well, so along with the glass main wall, was extremely unique, it was also a bit shorter. So it did feel like a slightly different game when you got out there, but it was cool to watch from. The new court in DC has glass up the top and along the side a little bit, so not sort of on the playing surface as such. And they do have some good viewing, so they can get big crowds there.
Mathias Alberton (44:57.279)
And just to rewind a tiny bit our conversation to the very beginning, I introduced you as the son of two champions. Undoubtedly, they are. Now, do you think that the game has changed much in the timeframe they were playing as opposed to the reality that you are now confronted with?
John Lumley (45:27.125)
I believe so. When my dad started playing, and mum really, they used to have gut string, so you couldn't get it anywhere near as tight. And then they brought in like a synthetic string. I don't know what year it came in, but it was, that changed the game sort of overnight almost, because you could go from stringing the racket at say, you know, 60 pounds of tension and then now with the synthetic string you're stringing up to 110 pounds of tension. Like those things are really tight. So then that enables you to hit the ball harder. And it sort of created a faster, more volley type game rather than like a more sort of traditional classic game where you're playing the ball off the floor and sort of moving your opponent just into the corner. There's a lot more now target hitting, so hitting the dead on and the areas of the court that when you the point outright.
Mathias Alberton (46:26.155)
And now forward again. Back in the days, certainly they did have antagonisms with perhaps one other champion or opponent and there were, you know, big rivalries going on and on for years. Now, is it fair to say that one of your biggest rivals is Camden?
John Lumley (46:56.688)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (46:58.989)
Because you are number two and now is number one, is that right?
John Lumley (47:03.071)
Yes, yeah, and he's sort of been, he's been at the top for a while. sort of he's who I've been chasing over the past, whatever, 10 years really, since he's been number one. But yeah, definitely we have, and we're very good friends off court. So it's tricky when you're sort of, you know, you've got to go into that mode of, all right, I'm playing a very good friend that I keep in contact with and we're you know, see each other a bunch, but, now you're, you're trying to sort of take him down in a, in the USA from final. it's, it's interesting. Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (47:39.767)
And how do you... I guess the question would be how do you prepare for this repeated effort to contrast one other opponent to battle him down?
John Lumley (48:00.183)
I think it's sort of me trying to still improve and get better in aspects of the game, getting stronger, faster, and trying to improve myself, and then also trying to figure out ways of beating him, really. If you play him in a certain style, you've got a much better chance versus if you play him in a different style. And it's sort of figuring that game plan out and then sort of sticking to it and following through with that game plan. And I think we're sort of still building that and, you know, hopefully one day we'll get there. But it's sort of like this challenge that is fun. I enjoy trying to break it down and figure out what went wrong and what I can improve on. you know, the goal still the same to hopefully be world champion one day and take that number one spot. And he's the guy that's there right now and I've got to train and work to try and take it off him really.
Mathias Alberton (49:06.575)
The question is, let's say, because let's assume that a world number one champion has a target on his back, so everyone is after him. So that undoubtedly should put some extra pressure, which is not great to have. Instead, let's say the second one, the chaser, the hunter, as an advantage of, as you said, trying over and over again from different angles, different perspectives. Do you feel this advantage of yours? Or is it something that is a bit also annoying? Like, gosh, I wouldn't like to test all the time, but just to get rid of him.
John Lumley (50:04.209)
I don't know if, I don't think it's definitely, it's not ideal having to keep chasing him. It'd be obviously a lot easier for me if he retired tomorrow. But I would also feel a little bit sort of, not empty, but I wanna sort of crack that challenge really. It would almost be a shame if he sort of, you know, vanished and never played again. I, it sort of, it feels like at least for this last sort of two or three years, we've been, you know, the ones battling it out. And it's, yeah, it's something that I, you know, I enjoy that sort of challenge a little bit. It's definitely annoying and it sucks, you know, shaking his hand after he's beaten you and I need a day or two away from him before I sort of reset and sort of forgive him almost. I wouldn't want him to just suddenly stop. don't think that wouldn't feel right almost.
Mathias Alberton (51:20.311)
Well, I think it is a very good high note to to hand pretty much this conversation. I mean, it's the spirit of the sport, isn't it? After all. So is is great. And in real tennis, there are so many rules, there are so many difficulties and particularities given the court, given the the the length of the rallies that there are so many options to win. That is really a kind of a chess game, you know, it's worth pursuing excellence in this regard.
John Lumley (51:54.276)
Yes, yeah, and I'm giving it my best, so hopefully one day we'll get there.
Mathias Alberton (52:02.645)
Absolutely. John, it was really super nice to speak with you. I really do appreciate your time. was great. It was great to have you on the show. I thank you as well, all the audience listening to us. And as usual, if you do have questions, you are intrigued by real tennis, you want to post new questions to other champions in the future, please let me know. And...
John Lumley (52:10.736)
Yeah, you too. Thank you, Mathias. Appreciate it.
John Lumley (52:16.114)
pleasure.
Mathias Alberton (52:30.295)
I remind you that as Martial Attitude CIC is a community interest company based in London, we are providing training for visually impaired and blind people every Sunday in central London. So if you are visually impaired or blind or you know someone who is and would like to be involved as usual, you keep in touch.