Over the years, I’ve worked closely with visually impaired and blind individuals, developing programs that focus on confidence, balance, and the profound importance of touch in everyday interactions. In this episode, I’m joined by a remarkable guest, Es Es, who has been part of our journey since the very beginning. As a teacher with nearly two decades of experience, Es Es shares his unique perspective on navigating life with sight impairment. We explore the challenges of adapting to progressive vision loss, the emotional impact of these changes, and the evolving role of touch as a vital sense in his daily life. It’s a conversation filled with insight, resilience, and thought-provoking reflections. Es Es, a remarkable individual who has shown tremendous dedication in our training sessions. He often finds it challenging to keep on explaining his visual impairment and how it affects his behaviour in certain contexts to others, which can make navigating social situations more demanding for him. Despite this, he approaches each session with incredible determination and openness, demonstrating his resilience and eagerness to grow. Our work together has already had a significant impact. Es Es has expressed his appreciation for the training we've done so far, highlighting how it has helped him build confidence and better communicate in a way that feels authentic to him. From there, we also consider how Martial Attitude Training can be developed and refined further to provide an even more compelling experience to present and future participants, enhancing motivation and implementing support throughout every session. Let’s dive in.
Mathias Alberton (00:04.24)
Hello everyone, this is Mathias Alberton. I am a Spop Psychologist in training in London and I am the creator of Martial Attitude and Martial Attitude Voice, the podcast you are invited to listen to today. As you know, we have been doing some interesting work with visually impaired and blind people over the last few years, actually, but in recent months, starting from September. I have started to deliver workshops every week on Sunday afternoon in central London to see if we can develop a bit of a sense of confidence, better balance, better posture overall, and what I started to call tax exchange. So the sense of touch when applied in contact with other people. So when we are in social settings, let's say, and we don't know exactly how to behave with our arms for arms when in casual touch with other people, for instance in crowded places or at the grocery store queuing up. we have been through a series of episodes with other participants of Martial Attitude Training. Today I'm very pleased to have as guest Es Es who has been with us from the very, very beginning. Ciao Es Es, how do you do?
Es Es (01:30.16)
Not bad yourself?
Mathias Alberton (01:31.556)
Yeah, all good, all good. I'm waiting for the weather to become spring again. I can't go through winter, honestly, in London. It's too cold, it's too wet. Anyway, so we will meet actually tomorrow again on the training. Is that right? Yep. And tell us a bit about yourself, just to allow the...
Es Es (01:37.395)
Yes, that's correct.
Mathias Alberton (01:58.202)
... the audience to create visual pictures, let's say, of you, and mental pictures of you. How old are you?
Es Es (02:05.683)
I'm 41 years of age.
Mathias Alberton (02:07.948)
And you live and work in London, that's correct. Your job exactly is a teacher, you're a teacher.
Es Es (02:10.811)
Yes, I do. That's correct.
Es Es (02:15.569)
Yes, six-form students.
Mathias Alberton (02:18.374)
What kind of subject do you... So, there is a lot of them, different subjects, or you just do something particularly?
Es Es (02:20.113)
I teach business studies. I just particularly focus on A-level and B-tech business for 16 to 18 year olds.
Mathias Alberton (02:37.882)
You have done this for a long time, isn't it?
Es Es (02:39.993)
I've been teaching, it'll be my 20th year, I mean my 19th, 19th year of teaching.
Mathias Alberton (02:46.778)
Well, that's a full career pretty much. And what is your level of visual impairment at the moment?
Es Es (02:55.935)
I'm sight impaired, I'm losing my peripheral vision. I have gaps and blind spots in my peripheral vision and slightly affecting my central vision as well. So sometimes things appear or disappear or they just become blur. My vision has deteriorated over the past 20 years. Unlike my younger brother who's totally blind, I still have some vision.
Mathias Alberton (03:24.94)
And this process of deterioration has gone through since the age of..?
Es Es (03:32.317)
So first diagnosed when I was 15 or 16 years old. So it's been a long time.
Mathias Alberton (03:39.32)
And has been complex for you, difficult for you to adapt to the deterioration of your sight?
Es Es (03:48.259)
The past three or four years have been the most challenging years of my life. I was first registered severe sighted beginning of 2021 and that led to me making massive lifestyle changes. I can no longer drive. I'm relying on public transport. I'm relying on the people. It's making it difficult to navigate around, especially when teaching larger classes, larger groups, tripping over, bumping into people, bags, equipment, tables. So it's become more challenging. I'm adapting and finding ways to manage it.
Mathias Alberton (04:32.748)
And let's say, so you're grown up pretty much as, can we say as, fully sighted? And with the relation of your sight, have you now in insight, let's say, can you say that your relationships with other people change?
Es Es (04:44.21)
Yes, it's making me more sympathetic and more conscious, more aware of my environment and how it may affect the people who may have similar needs as myself.
Mathias Alberton (05:14.86)
And the way that people, let's say, treat you, did it change?
Es Es (05:23.473)
Because I still have some level of sight, most people are unaware of my needs unless I've conveyed that to them, expressed that to them verbally, they may or not realise.
Mathias Alberton (05:35.822)
I have been speaking with people who are heavily impaired in their sight, they let's say fake it. So they play like nothing is actually going on because from the outside, from another person perspective is not noticeable at first glance. So they just keep going as nothing would happening.
Mathias Alberton (06:02.981)
They find it more efficient for them in terms of interpersonal relationship. Is something that you have indulged with or or...
Es Es (06:17.366)
I probably do something similar. I just get on with my life like there's nothing wrong with myself. I'm just as normal as other people, sighted people, fully sighted people. So I do just play along with it in most cases. I try to not let get to me because the more I think about it, the more it affects me. It affects myself.
Mathias Alberton (06:49.21)
In terms of mood, you see. So if I may ask, if it's not too upsetting for you, what's the kind of emotions that this kind of, let's say, spiral towards less and less assigned in tells you?
Es Es (06:51.474)
Yeah. It's that sometimes people assume that I can see things, I'm aware of it, and those assumptions tend to affect us people more than others. I might walk into objects, people assume that can see it, I can probably navigate around it, but I can't, and it's frustrating that people are pointing towards signs or people building and I can't see them. I can't see. I have to then explain and sometimes I feel bit embarrassed that look I can't see that person standing there or what the text is saying. I just feel embarrassed.
Mathias Alberton (07:51.77)
What do you think this embarrassment you're talking about is coming from? Is coming from, let's say a different opinion that you have about yourself so that, you know, I shouldn't be like this. I should be like that. Or it is just because you need, you come up with needing to explain and you don't want to explain yourself. would just like to have.
Es Es (08:07.73)
Yeah. I don't want to explain myself, but I have to then explain to one person, to another person, to another person.
Mathias Alberton (08:25.966)
Also because this explanation thing, it happens, it occurs every time with new people. So it's a kind of a tiring thing to go through all the time. It's a bit like that. And in terms of support instead in everyday life,
Es Es (08:40.687)
Yeah, it is on.
Mathias Alberton (08:50.297)
Do you need any support? For instance at home, doing your things, doing the washing, the cooking, I don't know, something like that?
Es Es (08:56.883)
So my family did help out with the washing, with the cooking, even ironing clothes. I ironed my shirt yesterday and my wife was complaining that it hadn't been ironed. To me it looks perfectly fine but in essence it wasn't ironed properly. I couldn't tell the difference. I just couldn't tell the difference.
Mathias Alberton (09:21.356)
And there is a long road for you to go in terms of sight loss, or it is a pretty steady situation right now.
Es Es (09:35.635)
At the moment what the doctors have indicated is that it's slowly degrading, which is a good sign. I may have 20 to 30 years before I totally lose my vision. But like my younger brother who's one year younger than myself, he lost his sight rapidly due to a number of external events or factors life events could change the development of my condition.
Mathias Alberton (10:10.53)
Is there anything at all that you can do to hinder this process?
Es Es (10:16.155)
They say take vitamin A, have a healthy diet and those sort of things. At the moment there's no cure for it. So it's possible that you can slow down the process, but there's no cure for it.
Mathias Alberton (10:33.754)
Just to be specific, the diagnosis that you have is...
Es Es (10:37.659)
is Retinitis Pigmentosia, RP. It's affected my my cones and the rods so in the bright daylight I'm partially blind it becomes difficult to see and when it's dark it becomes even more difficult. I have a kind of a filter of colors and patterns in my vision and they tend to blend in with with the ground. In natural light it's more so difficult but slightly easier in closed environments in artificial lighting.
Mathias Alberton (11:15.778)
And talking about the idea of touch, the sense of touch. So, what is touch to you?
Es Es (11:28.285)
touch is the... the feeling of somebody being close to myself, to my body, to myself. And that touch can be voluntary, it could be an intimate touch, it could be a touch of aggression, a force, so it could be a positive or a negative. And sometimes I might not be able to tell the difference between the both.
Mathias Alberton (11:41.19)
Can you please expand a bit? And as you just mentioned, could you share what you think about the two touches, let's say, that I'm thinking of? One is the sense of touch, properly said, primarily intended, so to touch the table. And the other one is a bit what you were referring to, if I don't get it wrong. So the sense of touch when in contact with other people. Is there a difference for you between the two?
Es Es (12:36.611)
One can reciprocate while the other can't. So touching objects is a one-way communication whereas people is a two-way communication.
Mathias Alberton (12:49.324)
And do you rely a lot on touch nowadays?
Es Es (12:55.249)
I'm relying more on it as my condition is progressing. I do rely more on it. When going out I would rather have somebody holding my arm or holding myself when walking through an unknown location or especially in the dark or bright daylight and I would probably long for that if I don't have it. It will give me a sense of security.
Mathias Alberton (13:19.406)
And the idea that someone touches you, how does it make you feel?
Es Es (13:25.063)
Depending on the intensity of the touch, if it's forceful then I might react to it in an adverse way, but if it's complementary I'm okay with it. I'm accepting.
Mathias Alberton (13:40.366)
You can also, let's say, see it coming to a certain extent.
Es Es (13:45.297)
Sometimes, if it's within the area of vision that I can see, then I'm okay. But if it's a sudden, unexpected, then I'll be put off by it.
Mathias Alberton (13:58.52)
And knowing that you are, let's say, pretty independent because you have still quite a bit of sight to rely upon, how do you think is your sense of balance, your sense of motion, your posture, your walking?
Es Es (14:27.151)
My posture is not as I would expect it to be. I would like to improve my posture and my balance. I think these classes have helped me to try and explore ways to improve my posture and my balance. Just for example, was it last week or the week before? Where you encouraged me to balance on my right side or left side using that particular motion. Not going through those, not exercising those has affected. It becomes multi-dimensional for myself by participating in these activities. I'm able to become better at balancing and improving my posture.
Mathias Alberton (15:19.607)
And have you ever been a kind of a sporty person doing physical activity or not at all?
Es Es (15:25.689)
Right from the school days where my condition started off, I was reluctant to participate because, for example, I couldn't see the ball coming, the football, the tennis ball. And it was just difficult to participate in those sporting activities. I would dread it and probably avoid any conversation. Social gatherings, know, college friends, uni friends or, you know, adult friends going for sports, you know, playing sports. I would just avoid it because I don't have the confidence. I know I have a visual impairment and I'll be a liability rather than an asset. And I think that label of being a liability has stuck with me for a long time. that's lessen my self-confidence. So I don't have much confidence in participating. And with this group of partially sighted and blind people. I found some confidence, safe zone to exercise, to participate without being judged, without being offended, being criticised that you can't see, you can't do this, you can't do that. I know everybody is in the same boat as myself and I feel more confident.
Mathias Alberton (16:41.134)
You mentioned confidence and I'm very glad you did. You, let's say you put it already into a context, but if we look at it from an abstract standpoint, let's say, how would you describe confidence generally?
Es Es (17:03.837)
Confidence, I would describe it as the amount of willpower or ability of doing something well. Do I have the positive outlook, the mood to do something and to push myself to do it better?
Mathias Alberton (17:24.502)
And in the context that you were referring to just two minutes ago, you were mentioning, let's say, a safe environment, a neutral environment and not judgmental environment, which provides, let's say, kind of the basics in order to be confident enough to do the thing. Is this what you meant?
Es Es (17:43.197)
Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (17:55.684)
So what we are doing in Martial Attitude Training every Sunday is trying to apply some of the technique of Kung Fu when shown and to try to understand how these are applicable to visually impaired and blind people exchanging pressure with arms, forearms one in front of the other, so two people are standing and they move their arms in certain fashion so that they can exchange pressure and react to the pressure that is applied to them. How do you find it so far? I I don't want to get too specific in the individual movements because, let's say, in a radio program makes no much sense, but... let's say from day one, let's put it in this way. So when you first came across with the communication that we were starting this workshop and you kicked in, what were your expectations? Why did you come, let's say?
Es Es (19:10.535)
think some of the key words was the exercise, the improving posture, the confidence. I think those were the elements that kind of pushed me towards this. I've hardly ever ventured out anywhere alone. So one of the reasons why I started attending was to develop my self-confidence, to become more mobile, become more independent in going around doing things. But one of the issues that I was afraid of was the speed of the motion. Even now when you're going through, for example, at the end, form, with the speed, you're well versed in doing that, I sometimes, I can't catch up to it. I need it slowed down, I need to break it down, so... last week I recorded your moves and I will try now to slow it down to picture it, to visualize it, how it's done because when moving too fast my brain can't process that so speed has been an issue we've started off with slow motion, slow movements which has been helpful to keep up the pace
Mathias Alberton (20:35.718)
It's interesting because some of the exercises at the beginning, so I, of course, I tried to do my best to make it accessible. And one of the tasks that I am undertaking is to be verbally clear enough so that regardless the visual impairment, it is understood what is expected from people to be doing. And it is not that simple, let's say, on its own. Also because the movements that we are trying to train are pretty weird, a bit different than the usual ones. However, some of the first exercises are really kind of building blocks and they can proceed as slowly as we want. Pretty much everything can be done as slowly as we want. However, sometimes in the speed there is a flow, a sense of flow. So rather than breaking down how to step down three steps from the bus, let's say, and break it down, you put the foot, turn the hip, bend the knee, you know, you just say step down and one steps down. It's easier to see the movement in a flow than in breaking it down. So the speed can be, let's say, somehow modified, controlled for. But I, from my experience, one of the most important items is the repetition. So you have the possibility to repeat over and over and over again the movement so you can actually internalize it in a way. And of course, meeting with you guys once a week is phenomenally good, but it could be improved having more session at our disposal. What would you change or do differently so far in the process?
Es Es (23:12.563)
Mmm. Maybe with, because it was just myself with Andrew, I think a few more partners, maybe one more, that might help to practice with more partners and different people. As you indicated already, sometimes breaking those steps down helps. So... verbally articulating those steps again, just you know repeating it for a reminder. At the moment those are only two things I can think of.
Mathias Alberton (23:58.04)
And if you were to explain what we are doing to someone else, what would you explain to them?
Es Es (24:12.571)
I would explain to them the exercise of the movements is to help us with our balance, is to help us with our posture, but more importantly to be aware of those subtle changes that we make to our posture that could have a positive or a negative impact. Sometimes we're moving our upper body, we're twisting and turning without even realizing. It's only until when you've picked it up and you've corrected us. It's those subtle things, small, small things that make it a more better experience. So being aware of our small movements and changes.
Mathias Alberton (25:09.616)
Would you like to have, apart from the, let's say, physical training? Something else that is trained during the session or the let's say the program the training program as it has been conceptualized so far to be slightly modified to either introduce let's say other exercise kind of gym exercise or prep exercises and also having let's say sport psychology workshop, let's say to see or to have a talk about different topics and to add them on. How do you like something like that?
Es Es (26:04.467)
I mean having a variety of exercises with a specific purpose behind it would help having an idea of the structure of the sessions or the the plan of how the exercises will build up that may also help us all to build a better picture or paint a better picture in our minds that hopefully by the end of the six sessions or five sessions you know where we're heading towards so knowing of the bigger picture that might help
Mathias Alberton (26:44.996)
Now you're talking about a bigger picture. When you came in the first time you have zero picture. And let's say now we have gone through September, October, pretty much half of November. So let's say two full months we've been doing this. So did some kind of picture materialized?
Es Es (26:50.343)
Mm.
Es Es (27:13.939)
Yes, yes. It was during one of your exercises where you were testing myself and where you use a combination of movements that I kind of got understood. Okay, so I'm supposed to do this here, I'm supposed to do that there. And I was able to take those building blocks and put them together. And it painted a better picture of what it looks like.
Mathias Alberton (27:43.154)
Is there a way, in your opinion, to accelerate this process? More sessions? More frequency? Or more intensity? Or more length?
Es Es (27:58.339)
I think it's a mixture. Some people would require more time to practice those movements. Some people would require more of intensity, a challenge to help them push themselves. And some people would require both of them.
Mathias Alberton (28:21.124)
Because in this sense, you know, I'm of course very interested in upgrading the training if it's possible. But also I don't want to put on the table too much stuff that cannot be digested given the time that we have been given, those one hour and a half every week. It would be lovely for me to have one hour and a half three times a week. That would be fantastic.
Es Es (28:58.533)
I think, this is my personal opinion, think one of the things that would help is for every session to have a focus on how this would improve our ourselves, our confidence, our posture, our movements going forward. Maybe the focus may be hand-eye coordination, may be a posture, it may be how we position ourselves. So maybe a focus for each session and that will help paint a better picture.
Mathias Alberton (29:43.014)
It's interesting because, as you said, people are different. The level and the quality of visual impairment are very different. And also, every visually impaired and blind person who is attending the training is invited the training with someone else who is fully sighted. I don't want to say that this is a prerequisite of the training, but the purpose is also to put together blind people with fully sighted people doing the same thing, not doing something that is adapted for visual impairment. So I cannot stand in the center of the room with everyone looking at me, but I need to have a one-to-one contact, at least in the first weeks. It takes a bit of time in order to develop a fair understanding of what we are trying to achieve.
Es Es (33:10.003)
I agree with you. With the smaller class sizes, it really helped. It was a stark contrast in the beginning where it was a larger group and you giving your time for one-to-one, one-to-one was challenging because of the various needs of the individuals with different levels of sight impairment. I agree, know, having smaller class sizes and that one-to-one approach was really useful and I believe that we've really benefited from that. Was this the, you may have answered this before, was this the first time that you worked with visually impaired other than Peter?
Mathias Alberton (38:44.018)
Let's say at least three years before the pandemic, so I started meeting with Peter we started training together. And from there, I started to train with another couple of visually impaired and blind people. And then as it happened, we were in talks with Metro Blind Sport. And then the pandemic hit. So there was a big reset. So it was not possible to do the thing. And when there was the possibility to do the thing again, some key people changed. So communication got interrupted. They did have different priorities. I was very much in the middle of my studies in sports psychology at university. So in this sense, I did have the possibility to train with the other visually impaired. But then a lot of time passed by, and now I started again.
Es Es (40:45.709)
your approach to teaching has it changed or has it developed and how you know what changes have been brought into your practice from how it was before and how it's now?
Mathias Alberton (40:58.918)
It's very interesting question. So the advantage that I did have with Peter was that I was, let's say, used to the level of proficiency of Peter in doing the thing as we progressed from month to month from month to And I knew him. I knew how he moved and I knew his difficulties and where these difficulties were and what we could have been worked on with you guys is different not because I'm starting the process over again, rather because each one of you is really different and my approach cannot be identical to each one of you. Rather, I need to identify who can do what and which is the best partner to couple you with in order to train a specific movement. So it is extremely stimulating for me as an instructor to try to understand this. And also there is the language. So... the explanation that I use might be very clear for one person, but not for everyone. So I need to reframe it as slightly different for different people. I find it, let's say, in a way more interesting now than ever before, but I did have to adapt a lot. So I need to adapt every time because every time there is maybe a new movement and therefore I needed to test. I say, if I explain this in this way to this person, will it work? Yes, no. But the other person understood it much better. Okay, so how can I put together the two things relying on the fact that they are going to touch each other and not seeing each other? However, given enough time, we have some proficiency across participants, so they can start really collaborating having a common ground. That's pretty much where I want to get by the end of the year,
Es Es (46:42.459)
As you said, you're adapting, you're changing, and you're trying, experimenting with different statements or language when you're explaining. It is becoming better. And I think in the beginning, it was about finding what works well with Andrew, for example, and what works well with myself, what works with Rama or the others. And you're trying different things, which is helpful.
Mathias Alberton (47:30.192)
So it's kind of creating a dictionary, let's say. Yeah.
Es Es (47:33.235)
Yeah. Because sighted people take things for advantage. Those with visual impairments and those who are born blind, you know, I've come across people, just for example, I'm participating in the wall climbing sessions and the instructor asked us to make a knot, a tie knot in the shape of an eight, figure eight and as myself a sighted person for a long time, I know what a figure eight looks like, but my partner, who was born from birth, he doesn't know what a figure eight looks like. He doesn't know the numbers as visual representations. He struggled with that. And the facilitator wasn't aware of that. He didn't know about that. And nor could he have foreseen that but it's something that he will now for the next session be aware of Okay There might be things that he or she knows or doesn't know that you know and help them in a different way You know using touch so, know The facilitator was using touch method to indicate this is what an eight looks like and this is what you need to produce for your knot.
Mathias Alberton (50:28.09)
Do we have expectation for the next 10 sessions?
Es Es (50:34.139)
I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Because I'm a school teacher, the way we think is like we plan for the future. So whatever we're doing now is all to help with the future development. And if I have an idea of what those 10 sessions might look like, an indication, that they'll probably motivate me more to participate. I probably need more worded example that we're going to be doing X, Y and Z in the future sessions so I can anticipate those.
Mathias Alberton (51:41.56)
There is an extra layer of difficulty here that I want to share with you I ideally need everyone to go through a certain number of sessions so that they all have the same kind of understanding. So in this, beginning of a training program, such as the one that I have developed for visually impaired and blind people is complex and is in need of extra funding or extra time opportunities. in order to have rather than one session a week, three or four sessions a week. So the newcomer can be confident that they will go through a series of exercises with someone else who knows those exercises fairly well. And in some other occasion, I can take those ones who knows the exercise fairly well in order to develop more with new exercises. And at the beginning, it's really difficult to plan it in advance.
Es Es (54:49.391)
If the program goes ahead or doesn't go ahead, would you expect us to take away from the past few months and what would you expect us to be doing moving forward?
Mathias Alberton (55:06.512)
Well, as I planned the thing to be, the idea is that if two people are coming together, they have the chance to learn together and they can train some together between sessions and later. The one thing that I would like them to take away is that they can do something interesting with their partner, their brother, their friend, whoever they came with. That's for a start. Secondly, that these exercises really have expanded their sense of confidence. Not confidence in terms of, I can do this better than before. Confidence meaning that, someone has by mistake touched me on the bus to pass through because the bus was crowded and actually I am pretty fine with that because it didn't happen anything nothing was meant to happen but nevertheless is a kind of touch is a pressure on my shoulders on my arms that I am now a bit more accustomed with because I trained it more. So I, in those occasions, I feel much more relaxed instead of being always on extreme alert when something like that happened. So I would like that to be a takeaway for sure.
Es Es (56:54.525)
Thank you very much for that.
Mathias Alberton (56:57.2)
Thank you, Es Es. Thank you very much for being with us. Thank you for all the questions. I love them. And thanks everyone who has been listening to this episode. I invite you to share with others if you do have questions, particularly for Es Es or for anyone else who will participate in the future to Martial Attitude Voice for the training with impaired and blind people, please do not hesitate to contact me throughout your preferred channels. As usual, you keep in touch.