Today, we dive deep into the world of sport psychology with a truly inspiring guest—Marta Tutić. Marta is a sport psychologist and a Master Gestalt psychotherapist from Belgrade, Serbia, bringing a unique blend of psychology and therapy to both athletes and non-athletes alike. She believes that success isn’t just about results—it’s about enjoying the process. In this episode, we explore how Gestalt therapy helps athletes stay present, navigate performance pressures, and redefine success beyond medals and achievements. We also tackle the challenges of transitioning out of sport, the mental barriers athletes face, and the true meaning of greatness. Get ready for a thought-provoking conversation that might just change the way you view performance, success, and yourself. Let’s dive in!
Today, we dive deep into the world of sport psychology with a truly inspiring guest—Marta Tutić. Marta is a sport psychologist and a Master Gestalt psychotherapist from Belgrade, Serbia, bringing a unique blend of psychology and therapy to both athletes and non-athletes alike. She believes that success isn’t just about results—it’s about enjoying the process.
In this episode, we explore how Gestalt therapy helps athletes stay present, navigate performance pressures, and redefine success beyond medals and achievements. We also tackle the challenges of transitioning out of sport, the mental barriers athletes face, and the true meaning of greatness.
Get ready for a thought-provoking conversation that might just change the way you view performance, success, and yourself. Let’s dive in!
Follow Marta on INSTAGRAM and LINKEDIN.
Mathias Alberton (00:03)
Hello everyone, this is Mathias Alberton, this is Martial Attitude Voice. As you know, I'm the creator of Martial Attitude and in this podcast, we explore a bit about spoke psychology and how we can make life better for athletes but also to speak with athletes as it happened in the past. So we have come across multiple players in professional boxers or we did have a lot of conversation in real tennis most recently and as you know I'm dedicated as well to visually impaired and blind people and trying to put together this training for them so better posture, better confidence when touching and being touched by other people so as you know I'm a bit busy in these things but one year ago, I was able to go to two conferences internationally. And one of these was in Tallinn, Estonia. And it was the European Young Spoke Psychology Conference. It was extremely interesting. And among the lectures and the keynotes that I've been attending, there was the keynote of an extraordinary young lady from Serbia, Marta Tutić, who is a guest with me today. She is a sports psychologist and she's also a guest psychotherapist. And of course, she has been working loads with athletes. She has been working with clubs, football clubs and basketball club in Serbia in the past. And I know she has a couple of very interesting other clients ranging from eight years old to almost 40 years old. So welcome Marta, how do you do?
Marta Tutić (02:04)
Hi, thanks for inviting me. I'm fine and excited to talk to you about some topics that will come up.
Mathias Alberton (02:14)
Yes, actually I remember that we first thought about having a conversation because I created a time ago on Instagram a post about success and we can talk about this and we were sharing some ideas because you posted yourself something that was let's say along the lines maybe not exactly phrased in the same way but let's say is a topic that is quite interesting. Before that, before starting though, can you just for the audience try to, I don't want to say condense, but to explain a bit for instance what is Gestalt Psychotherapy.
Marta Tutić (03:01)
Sure. Well, Gestalt psychotherapy is one psychotherapy module where we are using the capacities we're having in present moment to find a way how to deal with our past and also with our future. So what is one of the main topics in Gestalt psychotherapy is to be present and to being and living, I would say like that. And also what is important is that in Gestalt Psychotherapy, we're looking through some figures and the background. So figure is something that is in our focus at the moment and the background is something that is behind. So that could be our emotions, feelings, our behavior, something that happened to us in the past or maybe something that happened maybe five minutes ago, but still makes the background we have. I believe that Gestalt psychotherapy is something that we can implement in working with the athletes because I believe that it's really important for the athletes to be present in the moment while they're on the court, in the ring or whatever the sport is. So that's something that helps them to keep the focus in the moment.
Mathias Alberton (04:26)
And as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, this presence of the moment, of course, we know that there is a narrative out there, which is a bit mainstream, is a bit of a buzzword, because of the uprising, if you wish, of social media. Some philosophies better than others have, let's say, broken through the the mirror, the glass of the phone, so they are resonating more with people. And there is this idea of now, and a few years ago there was also this important book, made a lot of success. But as things come about and around, mostly from American culture, they are normally uber simplified in very simple terms, of course, they can appeal to many people, but then many people might misunderstand the core. So, Gestalt, of course, has been there for long time and as a psychotherapist working with athletes, knowing that athletes might not have all that amount of time to do multiple sessions or to be with you for a long time during a single session. How do you approach them? How many times you meet them and how you introduce the idea of Gestalt without reducing it to something that seems to be so obvious?
Marta Tutić (06:10)
Well, as you mentioned before, I think that in Gestalt Psychotherapy, it's important that we have some time to spend together with our clients in order to have the process that will help them in some way. So for me, I don't have the limit for how many sessions we have to meet, but also I always emphasize at the beginning of our first meeting that probably for the first time when we meet we will not manage to do as much as athletes expect from the first meeting. So that the first meeting is there so we can meet each other in some way to get to know each other and to see what are the topics that we are going to talk about and to work on.
For me, that process and the length of process is important not to be strict and to be fixed, for example, to make the success in five sessions because I believe I cannot provide that for my clients. I am assured from my experience that clients leave, for example, one session and they have the feeling that we made something big for just that one session. But I know that it's not enough to have the results that they expect. So I'm trying to have the interaction with the clients through different exercises and different techniques that will help them at the moment while we are together, but also to give them the techniques they can use alone in order to make some kind of result or the success that they aim to. So my focus is to provide them with the different tools they can use when they're alone before the match, before the game or during the match or during the practice they have with their team or if they're in individuals with their coaches in order to have the holistic approach. So it's not that just I'm working with them and they somehow have the confluence with me that only if they're working with me they will succeed or make the progress but also that they're supposed to do something alone when they have their free time or while they're at their practice or after the practice during the match or after in order to achieve something. So it's important for us to have the co-creation in the psychotherapy or in mental training with athletes.
Mathias Alberton (09:06)
And this idea of self-sufficiency, so they are standing alone at the end of a course of psychotherapy with you, is, believe, not really based on the technique, but is based on understanding what the issue is. So often happens, maybe the athletes are not immediately aware of what's not going on or what's the problem. So how do you approach this? Do you recognize that there is, let's say, a problem because they know and they tell you or it is a bit a discovery process?
Marta Tutić (09:58)
Most of the time it is the discovery process, but what happened to me a lot was that some athletes came to me and they were strict in saying, I don't need psychotherapy, I just want mental training. So I want to talk just about the sport. And I always appreciate the boundaries and we're working just on those topics that are connected to their sport. But most of the time what happens is in two sessions or three, they change their mind and they start talking about their family, their friends, the other contexts around the sport and them as the individual or team athletes. And then they decide to make the change in that therapy contract that we made on the first session. And they asked me if we can do some kind of psychotherapy or some of the techniques that will help them to have better relationship with their parents or their partners or any other people that are connected to them and that they have the contact with. So I like that part of my job that I'm letting the athletes to somehow lead the process. And I believe that with my guidance as a specialist, I can have better understanding from the athlete than if I'm pushing and insisting on doing psychotherapy or talking about some topics that maybe they're not ready to talk about at that specific moment. So that's that co-creation that I mentioned. So I'm following their needs and their pace, if I can say like that. And then we reach some spot where maybe they can grow a little bit more as individuals aside from sport. So I see from working with athletes that not always the sport is the topic that is bothering them. So most of the other things that are in the background around them in their community or in their everyday life is something that bothers them and then impacts the performance on court.
Mathias Alberton (12:27)
Also, there is this idea that psychotherapy on its own as a word, when you speak the word psychotherapy, there is, let's say, some sort of meaning to it. So it implies that something is wrong with you as an individual and therefore you don't want to go there because either you don't want to admit that something is wrong or even if you knew that something was wrong, you are not ready to discuss it with a stranger that is the therapist. And this is, know, in a I live and work in London in UK. There is a lot about a lot of talking about mental health stigma. So this idea that there is no problem about talking about mental issues or to tackle them and to speak about them freely in the community, whether that might be friends or family or workplace. But still, psychotherapy is a big word. It does have a lot of weight, let's say. So in this regard, given what you just have said, the athletes that you are working with are more referred to you by someone else or are they coming to you independently?
Marta Tutić (14:08)
Well, it happens that they come independently, that they search through the internet and they manage to find me, because maybe what is important to mention is that in Serbia not many sports psychologists are. So there are just few of us, so it's easy to approach us, because if you're psychologist, it doesn't mean that you're working with athletes. So you need some other educations that you have to go through in order to become sports psychologist. So it's not something that is, I would say, popular in Serbia in those rounds of psychologists. But on the other hand, many athletes come to me after they hear the reference from some of their teammates or their coaches from the other athletes that worked with me or maybe are currently working with me. So that's something that is maybe the best thing about this job. It's not that I have the instant result after the session with the client, but I can see the results of my work in maybe a month or five months or a year when they recommend me to some of their teammates or friends or family and they think that I am the right person for them and that I can help them. That's the success for me. As we mentioned that we'll talk about the success and I think that it's something for me that I can say that I succeeded when I see that my clients are recommending me as a specialist to their friends or to the others that are important to them. So they have the person who they can rely on. And that's me.
Mathias Alberton (16:13)
I have, before going into success per se, you already mentioned success twice, so we need to make it happen. I have another question which is related to your practice. You have been working with teams, two team sports, for instance, basketball and football, I'm aware of, maybe there are some more. When you work with teams, given the, let's say, the overall philosophy you are working with, how do you approach the team, which are multiple people? Do you meet them individually or you talk with them as a collective? How do you approach this?
Marta Tutić (17:06)
Well, my approach is that I somehow insist on working individually with each athlete because I believe that's the way how we can do something really. And also it's important to have some group meetings and workshops and that's something that maybe I recommend once or twice a month. That is important to have that kind of team dynamics so that I can see them how they function as a team, but also to meet them individually, which is something that is not so common, I would say, or something that coaches and the other staff from clubs do not see that as the right way. They think that if you have team sport, that the only way to work with the team is in team because they're practicing in team altogether and they're finding the ways how to achieve some goals altogether. But I believe that every individual is the part of that team. And if we have one individual that is not having the functioning in the right way, that the whole system will not work in the right way. So that's why I believe that individual work with athletes in the team sport is important. Also, what is common during my workshops is that athletes are not open to talk in front of their teammates. Just because they're teammates doesn't mean that they're friends outside of the court. So that's also something that I believe that we need that atmosphere where they can share with me something that they know that will stay confidential. In that way, I can approach the team better.
Mathias Alberton (19:05)
There is also another aspect to this, I'm extremely interested in as a trainees psychologist myself, which is the aspect that you are pretty much tackling now, which is organizational psychology. So it is from the perspective of a psychologist in corporate or in sport, you can see, let's say, from the outside, the dynamics, the communication between the power dynamics, coaches, parents, shareholders, committee, who pays the venue, the team, the roles within the team, the rookie, the one who has been there for 10 years, the injured, who is getting paid more because of some commercial he has done, who has not. So all this is a big confusion is a big environment which is very much a gestalt and creates a reality around us upon which we behave so we are affected by everything and even if we just look at the team and as an environment is an environment with so many inputs. So each individual is affected differently because of their own individual makeup. But one thing that is possibly coming across maybe badly from time to time is that, yes, there is this idea of teamwork, team building, creating strong relationship and and that's all well and fine, but the problem is that oftentimes with coaching, with training, with taking the reins of all the team is not comfortable in knowing that something is going on behind closed doors. So they lose control. They need to accept that some things are they can help but they can only work on the byproduct of a process that has been happening somewhere else and this is I believe some big thing so the relationship between let's say you and the organization rather than on the on the athletes. Is that right?
Marta Tutić (21:48)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Something that happened to me in the past with the one team that I was about to work with, but we didn't manage to find a way how to function together, which is fine, is that the coaches and the other staff expected from me to have individual sessions with athletes that last for 20 minutes and I was honest that I cannot do anything in 20 minutes and it doesn't make sense even to try and to start the communication with the athletes in that way. And then they wanted to find the other way how we can continue or start working together as having some workshops and we couldn't find the way. So that's some issue that I can see as a sports psychologist working with teams that we came across for a lot of time that the team is trying to mix with my work in the way that they want to have the control over my sessions with the athletes. And they also had some valuable feedback for me in order how to work with some of the athletes. But I didn't want that background in that way because I thought that maybe it will change my perspective and how I see the athletes if I have the screening of the team before I entered the team. So I wanted to have some kind of control over my process and over my work. And that's something that is not so welcome in the teams or maybe in that team that I was in at that moment. So I believe that coaches know how to do their work and the sports ecologists know how to do its work. So there is no need to mix those two because there is enough space for the coaches in the team, but also there is enough space for the sports ecologists in the team.
Mathias Alberton (24:17)
And this links very well to the idea of success, to the topic of success, because we were considering that the word success itself is connected to some things and this somethings maybe or maybe not very healthy or very right or very bright or very worthy of our attention or our effort in order to be achieved. For instance, I just spoke on the word achieve as for achievement. So some understand success as achievement, but some others do not. Just to quote myself, I'm sorry if I'm a bit self-referential, but I'm really, I am about to read through the post which I did time ago. And it was the following. In a society measuring the added value of individual contribution to the common good, success is the ultimate prize to thrive for. So the idea here, of course, this is me speaking, this is me writing, this is me thinking, so it's not someone else. So I take full responsibility for what I think and what I say. But the problem that I do have with success is that we are living in a society which provides, for instance, means of survival, that is money, for instance, given the added value on the marketplace. So there is... For me, again, there is this misconception that one get paid for the time that one has spent on doing something. Well, that was maybe true some time ago, but more and more this is not true anymore. And so the value that you add to what is needed, that gives you the leverage on having more value. Now, because of this added value system and mechanism, so success is, let's say, the sum of this value. And I have a bit of a problem there because, although I understand the mechanism in these terms as I just explained, there is bit of tension to have a lot of value, otherwise I don't have a lot of success. What do you think?
Marta Tutić (27:21)
And then I'm not good enough. So that's that many clients that I meet come with, with the interject that they're not good enough if they don't have, for example, 10 medals or if they didn't achieve what their coach expected them. And that's the problem because I always ask them, What do you expect from yourself? And they sometimes can be really confused by how do you mean what I expect from myself? What is something that makes me happy in this sport? And that's the main problem, main issue, because the athletes are following the goals and maybe expectations and interjects that coaches, parents, clubs, whole environment around them gives them or insists on. So sometimes it happens that they lose themselves, they lose their own goals or their perspective on success and value because they're following somebody else's. So I believe that all of us see success in a different way. So maybe for me, success is just to practice some sport. Or maybe for me, success is just to attend the competition. Not to be the best, not to take the medal home or to be the best in the world in that sport. Just to be there, to be present. And that's enough for me. For others, for some athletes that I'm working with, the success is the moment. They reach the success at the moment when they take the medal home. So it's something that makes them happy instantly. And that's the reward that they get. But later on, I can see them not being satisfied with what they achieved because they see the success just through that one competition. So they were good enough on that specific competition. But tomorrow, during the practice, if they make a mistake, they have lower self-esteem and they think that they're not good enough or maybe that they're not worthy enough and that maybe they do not deserve the medal they got yesterday.
Mathias Alberton (30:09)
There is also another problem attached to this. Let's imagine that you are talking with a very successful athlete. is not only very talented, but he has lot of discipline, has done this for a while, he has the right age, he is in the right sport. So they are doing the right thing, the right moment for the right person and therefore they are reaping successes. But then there is a point where you need to transition to retirement, let's say, or to go away from the sport for whatever reason, because of the age, because of the family, because anything else. So how then you can be sure that that success will stay with you? Isn't it a bit absurd to think success is something that you are collecting but never spending?
Marta Tutić (31:15)
Yeah, that's something that happens a lot in that process of transition from professional career to something else or to retirement because most of the athletes that I met had the issue with their self-confidence that they're not good enough in anything else but sports. So how they will continue with their living if they're not in sports. And then they're trying to find a way how to stay connected with the sport, for example, being coaches or GMs in some clubs, but there is not enough space for all the athletes to become GMs or coaches in the teams. So that's the spot where I think that psychotherapy is important. So we have to stop with the mental training and we have to start working psychotherapy. That's the process where they're going to meet themselves in a new identity as a retired athlete or the person who is 30, 35 plus who finished their career in sports and now they're reaching to something else. So I think that that process is really difficult for the athletes because they think that they're starting from the zero, which is not true. They have amazing background, they have discipline and they had amazing motivation in order to stay and continue with that sport until the moment when they got retired. And then with that background, they can make something new, maybe better than their professional career. But that's not the perspective that they're looking through at the moment when they're leaving professional sport.
Mathias Alberton (33:30)
That's why always upon my own reflections, which I shared on my channels, I stated a time ago that success is ideological. Instead, greatness is inspirational. So the idea there was to convey that success is something that when you achieve it then you have to let it go is achieved is bought is taken home is open up eaten digested that's it end of the story instead the idea i was looking for a concept which could substitute success in a more positive value… And I came across the idea of greatness. So if you can be greater, greater, and eventually even the greatest, let's say, everything is within you, is not outside of you. So the idea that success is… let's say given by others is only given so you can have success but you cannot make success it doesn't even work in English instead when you do your thing and you become good at it maybe you can become even better maybe you can become even great at it other people will say actually you know what you're actually great at this and this is something that is recognized by others but is not given by others is given by you because it's actually made by you greatness as opposed to success and that's why i thought well maybe success really now is a word that we abuse of a lot and maybe it's a bit last year's news, it's a bit a word to use a bit less. What do you think about this?
Marta Tutić (36:06)
Yeah, I agree with you. It's an amazing insight that you brought here. And when you mentioned that success is recognized by the others and not given by the others, I think that one of the issues with the athletes and maybe with people from other branches is that we accept our success only if it is recognized by the others. So, for example, if I'm working with five clients and I think that I'm happy with having five clients and working with them on a regular basis, maybe that will not be good enough for me. If I do not meet my colleague or my friends and share with them, listen, I'm working with five clients, it's going really well, I'm really happy because of that. And then they say, yeah, Congratulations, that's amazing, you have enough clients, that's really good for you and for your private practice, etc. So maybe I'm not 100 % assured of my success or how I see success if others do not recognize it. So that happens with the athletes also. If they do not share their success on the social media, they will maybe get just a few messages from their coaches, friends and family that they, you know, recognize their success and they're happy because of them and they're sharing the joy of that success that the athlete reaches. But some of the youth athletes, for example, need reassurance from people on social media. So that's why they're sharing what they achieved in order to get messages and comments under their posts to feel that they really did something amazing.
Mathias Alberton (38:16)
It is very true. That's the problem that I do have with success. And I do have this problem because it is intimately connected with the idea of value that we have spoken about a bit before. And it is, let's say, legitimized only by the public. And therefore my problem is I contend that success is something that we want to have to impose, to superimpose our way of doing things to other people because you see, now you tell me that I am successful and you would like to be me. And that is a mechanism that I really have a big problem with. And I have a big problem because I am victim of it as well. I mean, it's not that I have a problem because I see it in the comic books, you know, it's a problem that is everyone's problem. And it is a problem because the narrative is like that. Don't you agree to this?
Marta Tutić (39:46)
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent. Because I think that we are growing in the culture where we were given the interject that we are successful only if others see us as successful. So that's the trouble of many, many athletes, the issue that they're dealing with. So if, for example, some athletes are competing on some level that is not professional level. They do not feel self-confident enough to continue with their sports career because maybe they expect them to have Olympic Games in first five years of playing professional sport or maybe to bring the medals from some European or Worldwide Cups. the thing is that I'm trying to implement in my practice and in my work with athletes is to find the place where they feel good enough for themselves. So what is something that makes you happy in your sport? What is something that will be good enough for you to achieve on this competition? And that's the place that we're working on for a long, long time. So that's the process that I was mentioning before. So we need time to find what is something that makes athletes happy, satisfied with what they achieved. So it's not something that their coaches expect from them or their parents or friends or the nation, but only them. And then I can see when we dig in, I can see that they're happy with some lower expectations of themselves. So it's good enough for them just to attend the competition or just to try to fight for the medal, but not only to reach the medal. So the medal itself doesn't give them the satisfaction in order to feel that they're good enough. So maybe that's something that is important for their coach or for their team or for the nation that they're representing, but not for themselves. And have the difficulty how to reach the balance in having one polarity as expectations from the team or from the coach or parents, nation and the expectations from the athlete itself. So how to find the balance? It's a big question.
Mathias Alberton (42:54)
And there is another, let's say in terms of gestalt, if you wish, another element which is contributing to the confusion, which is the age group. Meaning, when we speak about sports, we tend to speak about teenagers until the age of 30, 32, 35, something like that. And undeniably is a young age and is an age of development, the one of let's say 15, 16, 17, 20 even. If it's not a physical development, which for many sports might also be an implication. I make an example just for the audience to make it clear. If you are a boxer and you are a heavyweight category, you are very tall, you are very big, you are very heavy. Before being able to control all that mass of muscle in a coordinated way, you might be a genius, but nevertheless you need the time to internalize your own body structure for the purpose of the athletic gesture. That is an example where, you know, you can be as young as you like, but you are not old enough in order to to be good as you could be, just because of age. Meantime, in this moment, where you are not ready enough physically, you are progressing very, very fast in terms of relationships with others. Maybe because you are successful, just to use the word, in sport, you have just changed the city, you have just changed the college, you met new people, you have made your grades and you have joined college or you went for the master at university. So you start to have a regular partner, all these things contribute enormously to your understanding of what reality is. But then you are so much busy with your athletic performance that it is ridiculous to think that you can sort out the athletic performance not looking at outside because predominantly the vast vast vast majority of the sport people we are usually referring to is going across multiple transitions which are extremely important and they are developmental psychology there is physiology there is hormonal change there is a family issue there are networking there is peer-to-peer behavior is immense and nevertheless we think just about the performance and the success of the performance so do you reckon this is happening?
Marta Tutić (46:33)
Yeah, for sure. And that's something that we came across in the practice a lot, that maybe athletes are ready physically to compete in the category they're to be competing but maybe they're not ready mentally. Because we can have the athlete that is really talented, hard-working, dedicated to sport and the practices and competitions that is maybe 17 or 18 years old, but maybe just ready from the outside and from the inside many things are missing. And that's the self-support, the inner support maybe that they lack or the support from their body in order to achieve something because you can be physically fully prepared but you do not know what to expect on the mental level. So when it happens that the athlete do not succeed in what they expected they will succeed, they're usually disappointed and their self-confidence is just lowering its level. So that's something, that's the issue where they can see that maybe they're not mentally ready to compete on that professional level. And that's where they have the issues and maybe that's the time when they ask for professional help through mental training or through psychotherapy in order to fix something if it's possible to be as quick as possible and then to continue competing on the same level. So it's important for our brain and for our mental capacities to follow our physical capacities in order to achieve something and in order to compete. I love you.
Mathias Alberton (48:42)
I have one last question for you. Talking about success, if you were to substitute success with something else, like, okay, fine, let's not say success anymore. I don't want to use this word anymore. What would you use instead?
Marta Tutić (49:08)
Maybe I would use... being. Just being and enjoying, yeah, being, enjoying the process.
Mathias Alberton (49:17)
As in being yourself, being and enjoying the process?
Marta Tutić (49:24)
Yeah.
Mathias Alberton (49:27)
Being in the process or the process itself?
Marta Tutić (49:32)
Maybe more being, focus on being and then being in the process.
Mathias Alberton (49:36)
Yep. Yep.
Fantastic. If anyone wants to contact you, should they contact you where? Do you have preferences?
Marta Tutić (49:50)
Maybe Instagram, my page or email. That would be perfect.
Mathias Alberton (49:57)
Absolutely. Of course, all of you are listening to the episode. You will find the links in the description below. Actually, I take this moment to greet everyone who has listened to this episode of Martial Attitude Voice Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I remind you that you are very interested in supporting Martial Attitude for the training for visually impaired and blind people. can do so by, of course, clicking in the link in bio, discover a bit more, get it in touch. If you are visually impaired or blind or you know someone who is, might be interested in training, I hold the workshops every Sunday in central London. you know you do this, you send a message, I will be happy to get in touch with you. And Marta, thank you very much for being with us today. It was really a delight to speak about your practice and thank you for all the insights.
Marta Tutić (51:02)
Thank you for the inspiring questions. It was really nice discussion.
Mathias Alberton (51:07)
Nice! As usual, you know this, you keep in touch.